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MagicMethod Thursday's Phone Sourcing Class Chat: Failure

Today we’re continuing this week’s discussion on failure. On Tuesday there were several good questions and comments made in the MagicMethod Phone Sourcing Class Chat that deserve more attention. They are:

“We all have business images to uphold, no one wants to be honest about the reality of our times.” Do you think that’s true?

“I think failure here can be looked at as not seeing the market changes, and adjusting accordingly.” What market changes are we seeing and what adjustments can we make?

Do you need anyone's permission to "admit" to failure- thoughts? You can visit that discussion here.

“I think failure is the inability to make a good living and thus you have to live off your own money in the bank.”

“Failure carries a strong taboo-why?”

“As sourcers we're good at assessing motivation. Agree?”

“Is NOT listening one of the steps to failure?”

“If times are lean, and you aren't paying the bills, you should quit and do something more productive in a different field.”

“Do you think personality types key into failure rates?”

“How do you know when you have a problematic personality?”

“At this point in my life my definition of success is much different than it was 20 years ago.”

Read more about Tuesday’s chat here.

Join us at noon (EST), won’t you?

Maureen Sharib
Telephone Names Sourcer/MagicMethod Trainer

“We are not certain, we are never certain. If we were we could reach some conclusions, and we could, at last, make others take us seriously.” ~ Albert Camus (French Novelist, Essayist and Playwright, 1957 Nobel Prize for Literature, 1913-1960)

Failure Discussion

This week we’ve seen great success and great failure in our national elections. On Thursday in the MagicMethod Phone Sourcing Class Chat we’ll be continuing this week’s discussion on failure.

"The failure is mine, not yours." ~ John McCain, November 4, 2008

What do you think failure is?

One of Tuesday’s participants commented, “We all have business images to uphold, no one wants to be honest about the reality of our times.” Do you think that’s true?

Another said, “I think failure here can be looked at as not seeing the market changes, and adjusting accordingly.” What market changes are we seeing and what adjustments can we make?

Vincent Wright is asking, over on the Yahoo group “Linking and the Secret” if you need anyone's permission to "admit" to failure- thoughts? You can visit that discussion here.

Following are excerpts from Tuesday’s MagicMethod class – read them and if you have comments please remember to attend Thursday’s noon (EST) class here.
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12:00pm Maureen Sharib Today's subject is about failure...
12:01pm Sam Medalie we all have business images to uphold, no one wants to be honest about the reality of our times
12:02pm Tom Cook You only fail if you give up.
12:03pm Sam Medalie Tom Cook, why don't you tell us how much money you have made in the last 2 weeks
12:04pm Tom Cook Actually I had a good week last week. Got a call from a client I had not heard from since June. They gave me 4 days of work last week at $75/hr.
12:05pm Ed Baldwin What do we mean by "failure" in this session?
12:05pm Tom Cook My business is down almost 50% over the last 6 months - although I have to admit last year was a very good year.
12:07pm Sam Medalie I think failure is the inability to make a good living and thus you have to live off your own money in the bank
12:09pm Ed Baldwin I think failure here can be looked at as not seeing the market changes, and adjusting accordingly. I have noticed that candidates, and clients are not as responsive as they had been in the recent past, so what would anyone garner to be the reason(s)?
12:11pm Tom Cook With the state of the economy people are afraid to make a change even if they really want to. This is going to have a significant impact on our business for several months. Let's not lose sight of the fact that the long term outlook for our industry is still very good. The next 6 months are going to suck but if you like what you are doing and you stick it out - it will be worth it.Success or failure is all a state of mind. If you think you are going to fail, you probably will.
12:21pm Maureen Sharib What in our daily routines as sourcers would lead us to fail?
12:21pm Paul Davenport Right now, many don't even have a field to play on or a team to be a part of.Sourcing is a team sport...we are like the field goal kicker in football...often not celebrated but required to do our job extremely well when called on...we don't celebrate in the touchdown, etc.
12:24pm Maureen Sharib Failure carries a strong taboo-why?
12:25pm Tom Cook No one likes to fail or even admit that they failed
12:25pm Maureen Sharib Times like these see many people start businesses.
12:26pm Maureen Sharib Why don't they want to admit it Tom?
12:26pm Tom Cook Ego is part of it
12:27pm Maureen Sharib Why? Is it embarrassing?
12:27pm Paul Davenport Great Sourcer interview question, "Tell me about your most recent failure. What would you have done differently to achieve a better outcome?"
12:27pm Maureen Sharib So our parents expectations fuel some of this?
12:29pm Maureen Sharib I can't help but wonder if this fear of failure isn't somehow (if not wholly) tied up with materialism
12:29pm Julia Stone Because I think it breeds pat answers like.. “I took on too much work, or I spend too much time at work so I got divorced.”
12:29pm Tom Cook We all have a basic need to feel good about ourselves - failure makes it more difficult to do that.
12:30pm Maureen Sharib Julia - those answers have an element of blaming others in them. What if a candidate said, "I failed because I was an asshole and I had my priorities screwed up."
12:31pm Paul Davenport Nope...follow up with..."Wow...I like the honesty. What will you do in the future to make sure those things don't happen again?
12:33pm Maureen Sharib Really though, how many of us are capable of looking inwardly?
12:33pm Paul Davenport There is nothing wrong with a candidate who shares personal failure...however, I would steer the interview towards professional failure.
12:33pm Maureen Sharib But the two are so related Paul.
12:34pm Maureen Sharib As sourcers we're good at assessing motivation. Agree?
12:35pm Maureen Sharib What motivates others to give us the names...Dayna, I think you can "hear" when a gatekeeper responds to you positively... if you can't pick up these nuances I think you're lost.
12:38pm Paul Davenport Absolutely Sourcing requires great intuitive skills, whether naturally gifted or learned.
12:39pm Maureen Sharib It is intuitive. I don't think it can necessarily be "learned" but a natural tendency towards it can be mightily refined.
12:39pm Tom Cook I find that the longer I do this the better listener I have become.
12:40pm Maureen Sharib Good point Tom -are we all on the same page that great sourcers are extraordinary listeners?
12:41pm Maureen Sharib Is NOT listening one of the steps to failure?
12:41pm Tom Cook Once you learn to read between the lines of what is being said, this job becomes a lot easier.
12:44pm Tom Cook If you don't have a passion for this business - it's extremely difficult when the lean times come.
12:45pm Maureen Sharib I agree Tom. It's what makes you seek other and better and more productive ways.
12:46pm Sam Medalie if times are lean, and you aren't paying the bills, you should quit and do something more productive in a different field
12:47pm Maureen Sharib Sam, I think you should quit ONLY WHEN you don't want to do something any longer. I know it sounds harsh.
12:48pm Sam Medalie If you can't pay the bills, you should quit and find something more productive
12:48pm Maureen Sharib Sam, part of this class seems to be abt what can be done to avoid failure.
12:48pm Tom Cook The tone of their voice will tell you as much about their interest as what they are actually saying.
12:48pm Maureen Sharib "If you can't pay the bills, you should quit and find something more productive." You keep saying that Sam.
12:52pm Maureen Sharib Do you think personality types key into failure rates?
12:52pm Julia Stone yes, I also think that not being true to your personality type will cause failure. Trying to appease the few who can't stand you, why bother?
12:52pm Maureen Sharib Do you think people who are morose are less likeable (thereby probably doing less commerce in the business world) than people who are cheerful?
12:53pm Maureen Sharib What if you have a problematic personality type?
12:54pm Maureen Sharib How do you know when you have a problematic personality?
12:55pm Maureen Sharib If you have a lot of personal "issues", trouble getting along w/others, trouble in business -do you think it might be time to "take stock"?
12:56pm Maureen Sharib FEAR OF FAILURE What causes it?
12:56pm Maureen Sharib Parents?
12:56pm Recruiting Animal The possibility of failure
12:56pm Maureen Sharib Lack of self-esteem?This article suggests it's a self esteem issue.
12:59pm Tom Cook At this point in my life my definition of success is much different than it was 20 years ago.
12:59pm Maureen Sharib Should we all do some homework (and thinking) on this and continue it on Thursday?
1:00pm Sam Medalie how about paying your bills--that is a sign you aren't a failure
1:00pm Maureen Sharib Interesting TOM -let's talk about changing values, too.
1:00pm Maureen Sharib Okay, let's talk about that too Sam. Paying your bills. But I think what we're talking about is deeper than that but will take care of that, in the long run...
1:01pm Sam Medalie good luck in the coming deep recession
1:01pm Maureen Sharib Understanding I think is what we're chasing here...
1:01pm Maureen Sharib LOL Sam.
1:01pm Maureen Sharib We all need luck Sam. But before we need THAT we need to be prepared.
1:02pm Sam Medalie I was being facetious
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Read the whole chat here.

MagicMethod Tuesday Phone Sourcing Class subject: Failure

One of the students ruminated last night over on the Yahoo student group for "The Magic In the Method":
Are there any people who took Maureen's course and are just trying to make a living as a name sourcer? If so, when was the last time you received a paycheck or are you just failing? I took Maureen's course about 5 months ago. It turned me on to the world of research. Yes, I have made about $20,000 in the last several months, but things seem to be slowing down. Anyone have any stories about how they are doing or how they are turning things around?

I answered:
I know you know that things have slowed everywhere - the trick in times like these is to stay focused and on your mark for when things pick back up and they will PICK BACK UP! Use this time to develop your networks, tune your mailing lists and message, read, study, learn, write, continue to grow. These are OPPORTUNITY TIMES -many will become discouraged and fall away and you will be left. Keep yourself intact - don't fall to pieces like so many will. Believe.

Harry Griendling writes a good article today over on ERE:
Why Aren’t Search Firms Out of Business?
He says:
Given that:
Corporate recruiters have access to tens of thousands of active candidates via job boards and specialized career sites.
Corporate recruiters have access to information about tens of thousands of inactive candidates via a variety of Web tools ranging from Google to ZoomInfo to LinkedIn.
Thousands of corporate recruiters have been certified in advanced sourcing techniques from firms like AIRS and the Adler Group.
ATS and hiring management systems not only house customized resume databases, but they also enable recruitment processes to be streamlined so that recruiters are able to spend less time on operational details and more time delivering value-added services to hiring managers.
Once the sole resource of search firms, research, and sourcing firms provide rapid candidate generation services to corporate recruiters at affordable prices.
…Why aren’t search firms out of business?
His answer:
Out of Business? Search is Thriving! In the face of all of this, the executive search Industry is not only nowhere near close to going under, it’s thriving. (The current economic downturn will temporarily halt this, but overall growth in the search industry has been explosive over the last 10 years.)
Read the whole thing here.

This (failure) will be today's topic in the MagicMethod Phone Sourcing Classroom Chat here at noon EST. You don't want to miss this one!

“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm.” ~ Winston Churchill

MagicMethod Phone Sourcing Classroom Chat Log Thurs, 10/23/08 SOURCING TOOLS

Best Remark of the Day "Actually I have made a lot more as a full time name sourcer than I ever did as a recruiter and the $$ are much more consistent." ~ Tom Cook 11:57am Maureen Sharib Have you all read the LinkedIn sourcing tools question and answers? 12:00pm Maureen Sharib Welcome to MagicMethod Phone Sourcing Classroom Chat! 12:00pm Denyse Diem I'm Denyse -A Telephone Soucer - how about everyone else 12:01pm Maureen Sharib Did you all come for the tools discussion? 12:01pm Maureen Sharib Densyse – we have 827 in the network now - that's exciting, isn't it? 12:02pm Denyse Diem I come for the banter between you and Recruiting Animal 12:02pm Maureen Sharib I'm hoping Glenn Gutmacher shows up today - he said he might -he's a TOOLS EXPERT! 12:02pm Denyse Diem wow - Glenn may be coming today? 12:02pm Maureen Sharib RA's not here I see - I've marked him tardy. 12:02pm Maureen Sharib Maybe - I hope so! 12:03pm Denyse Diem 827 is phenomenal M - congrats! 12:03pm Maureen Sharib It's a big accomplishment for a network less than 6 months old! 12:03pm Denyse Diem I see a few new folks - would everyone mind introducing themselves quickly please 12:04pm Tom Cook As a Phone Sourcer, how many tools do you really need?

Middle of the Night Phone Sourcing

Middle of the Night Sourcing - Insurance Org Charting Part I Middle of the Night Sourcing - Insurance Org Charting Part II ****** Need telephone names sourcing to fill your hard-to-fill positions? Call the experts at TechTrak 513 899 9628

"Go over to Magic Method with Maureen, that'll get u fired up for recruiting." ~ Dean Lockett RBC Chat 9/11/08 6:39 pm

Join us on Tuesday and Thursday at High Noon (EST) for the increasingly popular MagicMethod Phone Sourcing Classroom Chats on the MagicMethod network and don't forget! Saturday night at Midnight (EST) we meet again over on RecruitingBlogs to talk about things you can do with the telephone in the middle of the night!

See you in class!

“Creative minds have always been known to survive any kind of bad training.” ~ Anna Freud (Austrian born British Founder of child psychoanalysis and one of its foremost practitioners. (daughter of Sigmund Freud), 1895-1982)

;)

MagicMethod Phone Sourcing Classroom Chat Log Tuesday, Sept. 30, 2008

Best Remark of the Day "New [sourcing] services: Sales lead gen, sales lead gen training, join your local chamber and offer a free class to smaller businesses as a prelude to getting them as customers." ~Edge ****** 12:00pm Maureen Sharib Welcome to the MagicMethod Phone Sourcing Clasroom Chat! 12:01pm Maureen Sharib Today's Subject - HOW TO FIND WORK 12:01pm Maureen Sharib Paul, how do you find work? 12:02pm Paul Davenport To be perfectly honest, right now is the hardest market I've experienced in finding new projects. 12:02pm Maureen Sharib ? 12:03pm Maureen Sharib What have you done traditionally in the past? 12:03pm Paul Davenport My current company experienced a takeover and the entire HR Mgmt team was immediately fired. They dropped my contract without honoring the 30 day clause. 12:04pm Paul Davenport Because of my experience in large corp environments I have been fortunate enough to get referrals. 12:04pm Paul Davenport Sadly, I'm not as strong at Business Development as I'd like to be...especially in this market. 12:04pm Maureen Sharib Anyone else having trouble getting work at this time? 12:05pm Toni Buccarelli Yes. There seems to be a lot of folks who want "Virtual" work

Read the whole chat log here.

MagicMethod Phone Sourcing Classroom Chat Log Thursday, Oct. 2, 2008

Best Remark of the Day "I don't want the floor. Just saying any recruiter making money KNOWS he/she’s in sales." ~ Phoney ****** Finding New Biz 12:25pm Maureen Sharib Telephone Names Sourcer Available Hi, My name is Maureen Sharib and I’m a telephone names sourcer. I can help you quickly find potential candidates to fill your hard-to-fill positions out of companies you choose. I charge on a per-name basis to do this - you do not pay for hourly efforts - only for results. 12:26pm Maureen Sharib That's my message - very effective! 12:26pm Paul Davenport Hi all! Just took a few minutes to read through the posts. 12:26pm Phoney What if you asked them if they know how many "contacts" or "names" they need in order to make a hire/fill a position? 12:26pm Maureen Sharib If I asked them? They would not know. 12:27pm Phoney As a recruiter if someone called me and asked me that it would let me know they are speaking my language.... 12:27pm Maureen Sharib I encourage them to ask me though 12:27pm Paul Davenport I took some of my own advice and started cold calling...low and behold I drummed up some new biz! 12:27pm Phoney Well then Maureen - maybe you could give them an industry "standard" for them to think about 12:27pm Maureen Sharib What d’ya know Paul! We s'prise ourselves sometime! 12:28pm Mike Beller The phone is your best friend when u want cash $ 12:28pm Maureen Sharib I always encourage people to ask me questions 12:28pm Denyse Diem what kind of questions do you typically get? 12:28pm Maureen Sharib I figger it's a good way to get to know them - by the questions they ask! 12:28pm Paul Davenport There are a LOT of companies still in need of hiring. Interesting the big names are slowing down but the small/mid-size companies seem to be taking advantage of the market. 12:28pm Recruiting Animal Mike the person wasn't going to leave anyway. We shake good people loose 12:28pm Maureen Sharib What Phoney just brought up - how many names do I need? What do you charge? How fast can you do this? Do you have a minimum? Read the whole chat log here.

MagicMethod Phone (Rusing!) Sourcing Chat Log 8/21/08

Best Remark of the Day “…and, although it [sourcing] technically may be legal and, may, in its own Sharibian way be so massively contributing to the greater good of American commerce that there ought to be annual Sourcing Awards ceremonies...” ~ John S. Kennedy

Maureen Sharib
Ruse Web definition - a deceptive maneuver (especially to avoid capture). Also spelled rouse and rouge as in, “I’m so ashamed by my lying that my cheeks turned rouge.” Word raises hackles for a lot of people. Some say it’s illegal to misrepresent yourself to gain any kind of information (this theory hangs on the unfair trade practices rulings), some say it’s not illegal but acceptable practice in love and war and recruiting tactics. Subject usually raises a firestorm of controversy resulting in name calling and mud slinging. The object of discussing rusing here is to point out that a good researcher does not have to ruse, it’s a choice each one makes on the front line of battle. A good researcher understands how to elicit information by ASKing the right questions in the right manner.
CONTROVERSIAL Rusing may be a right-of-passage, in so much that sourcers who began their careers “rusing”, that is, lying to get information, were made so uncomfortable in their psyches by it that they’re challenged to increase their skill sets to the point where it’s no longer necessary to ruse.

MagicMethod Phone Sourcing (Rusing!) Classroom Chat Log 8/19/08

Best Remark of the Day "To me rusing is a covert act. The ruser has to be purposfully misrepresenting themselves or their motives. They are lying to achieve something that could usually be gottten honestly if they did the work.” ~ Leo Mc Kiernan

Maureen Sharib
Remember - TODAY is the rusing discussion in the noon classroom chat! Don't be shy - we want to hear what you're thinking! It's going to be WILD. People lose their minds...uhhhh...I mean "composures" over this stuff! They get their panties all bunched up and break out in lathers!

Ruse: Web definition - a deceptive maneuver (especially to avoid capture). Also spelled rouse and rouge as in, “I’m so ashamed by my lying that my cheeks turned rouge.” Word raises hackles for a lot of people. Some say it’s illegal to misrepresent yourself to gain any kind of information (this theory hangs on the unfair trade practices rulings), some say it’s not illegal but acceptable practice in love and war and recruiting tactics. Subject usually raises a firestorm of controversy resulting in name calling and mud slinging. The object of discussing rusing here is to point out that a good researcher does not have to ruse, it’s a choice each one makes on the front line of battle.A good researcher understands how to elicit information by ASKing the right questions in the right manner.
CONTROVERSIAL: Rusing may be a right-of-passage, in so much that sourcers who began their careers “rusing”, that is, lying to get information, were made so uncomfortable in their psyches by it that they’re challenged to increase their skill sets to the point where it’s no longer necessary to ruse.

Maureen Sharib
Has everyone done their homework? You are STRONGLY ADVISED to read the Blog Post in the Blog Posts section here on the site titled "Rusing - The Timeless Argument" along with the links that the post points to. That is today’s discussion subject!

Recruiting Animal
I'm here early.

Maureen Sharib
Have you done your homework?

Recruiting Animal
Hey, I'm on break till noon.

Maureen Sharib
What's the music today?

Recruiting Animal
Maureen, Don't You Weep

Maureen Sharib
Huh?

Recruiting Animal
If I could I surely would,
Stand on the rock where Moses stood.
All the rusers get drownded.
Oh Maureen, don't you weep.

Maureen Sharib
Nice.

Recruiting Animal
Oh Maureen, don't you weep no more.
Oh Maureen, don't you weep no more.
All your foes are confounded.
Oh Maureen, don't you weep.

Maureen Sharib
Can anyone describe what your definition of “rusing” is?

John S. Kennedy
An attempt to obtain value through fraudulent methods.

Maureen Sharib
Good. Want to elaborate? (I'm not necessarily agreeing w/ you John - I'm interested (and respect!) your view though!)

Arlene Hernandez
I feel very passionate about my job and what it is I do as a name sourcer. I get offended when folks out there talk their CRAP about what we do, especially if they are not a name sourcer.

John S. Kennedy
Yes ... if you are misrepresenting yourself in order to obtain value without return compensation that is a ruse.

Arlene Hernandez
As a names sourcer we have to do what we have to do to get the info for our clients

Read the whole exciting chapter here.